Magic Kingdom development

I personally would’ve loved for the Cars attraction to replace the Grand Prix Raceway, which takes up a hefty footprint already. I wouldn’t have necessarily minded had they even rethemed Tom Sawyer Island, or part of it, to incorporate it as a sort of throughway into the villains land, so long as they were able to keep the waterway and fauna intact. But what can you do? Anyhow, in my opinion, the next areas that need the most love in Magic Kingdom are Adventureland and Tomorrowland, the fact that they just added the Tron Lightcycle notwithstanding.

Losing the Rivers is such a bad move, adds to the heat, 4 e-ticket attractions in one area, just loses a lot of the charm of the place.

I think there are federal regs dealing with removal of established waterfowl habitats. Like once you make it, you have to keep it, but I imagine that is in the permit process. There are ducks that fly in and live on WDW property. I still think it is a bad idea to remove the water feature.

@HappyHaunt - There are no federal regs dealing with the man made "pond/river." Even if it was a wetland, which is one type of regulated waterbody where waterfowl were located, it would be a non-federal wetland and not regulated by the Clean Water Act or even the now unconstitutional definition of "Waters of the US." Disney would not even need to deal with state regulators. In Florida, artificial water bodies and waterways that are made navigable through dredging are not considered legally navigable. In Florida for a water to be considered navigable, and regulated by the state:

1) Be permanent in nature - This was not, and it was manmade.
2) Be navigable for useful purposes in its natural state - again, nope.
3) Be large enough to be used for public purposes in the area - Commercial purposes would for commerce. This is private and not available for commercial purposes.
4) Be measured at the time of statehood (1845) and not consider subsequent artificial improvements - Disney came long after statehood, AND it is completely an "artificial improvement."

I knew someone would be knowledgeable in this area. Thanks. In my state there was a landowner that got in hot water for draining a man made pond on totally private land. The scuttlebutt was it was a Corps of Engineers situation. I still wish they would find another location to keep the water feature, but there you have it.

Fattyakin - bang on with your Cars statement! The Speedway is utterly useless in the 21st century and unless they are replaced with electric ones are not doing anything for carbon emission control. I have been surprised for a while that they have not been changed but I have also been surprised for a while that this pointless attraction is still in existence. The Cars attractions here are the obvious and perfect answer even if they are not appropriate with the existing Tomorrowland footprint.

Rob P - I wholeheartedly agree with your views in your opening dialogue. I love the serenity of Liberty Belle and the adventure of Tom Sawyer island. Both will be a sad loss and detract from my personal MK experience.

"Progress" may not always be for the better.

Just one final thought on the Tom Sawyer Island subject and it's one that I don't claim credit for.

I know it seems obvious when you think about it but I read that if wasn't for TS Island it would've been just a lake in the MK and not the Rivers of America.

What a shame then that Disney haven't at least considered a fan based referendum on what many appear to consider a matter of such import.

@Rob P - Disney is not in the business of "fan service", they are all about making money. TSI and RoA are giant $$$s to the accountants that know if they fill in that area with IP-themed lands, that you can cram another 5-8k people (and their wallets) into MK. As Robert noted on a front page story, theme park attractions exist to make the company money. Yes, making fans happy is a natural result of this, but is not the driving force behind their development.

Ultimately, Imagineers have file cabinets full of ideas for rides and attractions, and are then tasked with finding out how to best fit them into the parks. Accountants look at the data and see a massive chunk of property that really doesn't generate a ton of interest or revenue on its own. Sure, TSI and RoA add a ton beauty, place setting, and critical cooling to that corner of MK, but guests don't immerse themselves into that world like they do TBA, HM, or BTMRR, which are all along the perimeter of the proposed development. Filling this black hole in with energetic and relatable IP-based attractions will instantly ring the cash registers, particularly an IP like cars that is one of the biggest merch sellers in Disney's arsenal (after Star Wars). If Cars were relegated to "Beyond Big Thunder", I'm not sure if it would have that same draw, and expanding the MK footprint that much (if you assume Villains Land is already going to take up space back there) could be self-defeating with circuitous walking paths to get back to those attractions (similar to what has happened to Mickey's Storybook Circus).

As much as you want to think Disney listens to their fans, they really don't. Like any other for-profit venture, they're following the money.

I'm sorry Russell but, "file cabinets"? What are these "file cabinets" you speak of?

@Russell

I certainly can't argue against your points and I'm sure that you are far better informed on this subject than I am. Of course it makes sense that this is a business and wants/needs to make money.

However a number of websites are discussing the reasons for a current decline in WDW attendances. Seems that they attribute this mainly to pricing. Not simply the entry fee but extra fees if you actually want to get onto an attraction. Now this may appear to have nothing to do with my thread but maybe, in some ways, it does.

For any entertainment business to be successful, and therefore profitable, it has to give the audience what it wants, Failure to consider the views of that audience may yet prove to be a mistake. Obviously Disney needs to grow and I think we all welcome that. But it has to be somewhat sympathetic. Fattyackin made a good point about utilising the Raceway for the Cars attraction. I think that's a great idea.
TSI has the potential to provide a gateway to the new lands and to incorporate some entertainment to both slow down the crowd and make money.
Just spitballing really but they are options that retain some if not most of this beautiful area without impacting on their profit margin.
It won't happen for all the reasons you outlined and soon Disney might start levying an extra charge for Mickey Ice Cream bars if you actually want to lick them ?

I certainly wish they could keep RoA, but as far as attendance, from my perspective the parks are much too crowded and I certainly don’t see diminished attendance. Yes, the pandemic hit them, and maybe that is where some numbers come from, but there is not a time of the year that there is not a sea of people. Clearly the cost and the nickel and diming you bothers me, but the people just keep coming and paying it. It used to be you could pick a time of the year where the crowds were substantially lessened, but now even September and February are crowded. I look at the crowd patterns daily, but I don’t look at daily attendance numbers, but from simple wait time analysis and personal (unscientific) observations in the parks, they still have high numbers. One other variable is true- the number of attractions that are down has increased and that does affect wait times.

I suppose they are fine with the ‘once a lifetime’ visitors model, but I wish they could spread people out with a fifth gate. Back to the development: I now am to the place where I will accept it and wait and see. There still is Disneyland, and I somewhat prefer that to MK anyway.

Yeah, I don't quite get @Rob P's attendance claim. Sure, DAK and DHS showed attendance declines in the most recent AECOM/TEA industry report, but MK's and EPCOT's gains more than made up for those losses and brought WDW as a whole almost back to 2019 levels. On the other side of town, both USF and IOA saw identical double-digit declines from 2022 as neither park made significant additions to increase their draw. UO can't even tread water in the leadup to Epic, which gives a lot of validity to many of the criticism TH has lobbed towards Universal/Comcast. Now, I would argue that UC's hands have been tied because of the significantly increased costs to complete Epic caused by the Pandemic (costlier labor, material shortages, and broken supply chains leading to delays) - the extra money being tapped to finish Epic might very well have been initially earmarked to give both IOA and USF e-tickets.

I do agree that pricing and upcharges are starting to have an impact on WDW's affordability as a blue-collar vacation destination, but Disney is more than making up for it with significant increases in spending per-cap to still come out ahead financially. In any case, it doesn't seem to have had a major impact in the overall crowdedness of the parks and resorts. Aside from a few slow days at the beginning of August, this month has been busier than normal for this time of year.

TH has noted this numerous times regarding another WDW gate, and Epic will be the ultimate test of the theory. I think it's very possible that Epic will open to crowds that will exceed the numbers that IOA/USF each pull on an annual basis (though we probably won't know that for sure until 2027 when the 2026 data are released from Epic's first full year of operation). However, the way I see it, it's not a zero-sum game, and there is going to be cannibalizing of attendance from the legacy parks. I don't think it will be as massive as TH seems to indicate, primarily because of administrative steps Universal are taking to force guests to visit IOA/USF, but also because adding Epic to the Universal experience does not significantly disrupt the typical week-long Orlando vacation model.

However, over at WDW, you already have guests spending a full week (or more) just at the current parks and resorts (and ancillary WDW attractions). Adding a 5th gate would be a massive expense (rumors are that the cost for Epic is approaching $4 BILLION with the delays and increased construction costs due to COVID), and the benefits are just not there when guests are already maxing out their vacation time (and wallets) to visit the current parks. Expanding the capacity of the existing WDW parks and ensuring there are new attractions every 2-3 years to draw return visits is the way to go. If WDW were to add a 5th gate, most guests are likely to replace a day at one of the current parks to visit the new park. The juice just isn't worth the squeeze for WDW, so that's why Beyond Big Thunder/RoA and TSI renovation and Tropical Americas (and Monsters Inc. to a lesser extent) are being proposed as Disney's response to Epic Universe.

I do think we might see WDW experiment with some outside the box concepts like they did with Galactic Starcruiser to see what the market can sustain. I posited in my review of the experience that the Starcruiser was the Star Wars theme park fans wanted when Disney bought Lucasfilm, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Disney tinker with other upscale admission products that take existing WDW resources and repackage them into an experience that is completely unique from the current parks, essentially creating a 5th gate. If WDW does open a 5th gate (and if they do, I wouldn't expect it this decade) I would anticipate it being almost exclusively geared towards big spenders, a la the Starcruiser or Discovery Cove with a far more intimate and curated experience.

@ Russell

I was referring to the "Disneytouristblog" website's article on the unexpectedly low Spring Break figures at MK this year where they inform that the Park was "dead" by comparison to previous years.

The crowds have been noticeably lower in 2023-2024 than the late 2010's and 2021-2022, and I think the best explanation for why is "all the above." Post pandemic travel has cooled off, the economy has slowed a bit, Epic Universe opens next year, and Disney's aggressive price hikes and variety of unpopular operational decisions are all making an impact.

Regarding losing ROA and the boat, while I can understand wanting to get rid of TSI because it was way outdated and not popular, I think we can all agree the park needed more wooded/tranquil space and not less. There of course is plenty of space around MK if they wanted to expand the park but like Russel said it comes down to cost of operating the park. The way they see it, why continue to pay to operate all that if most people don't care about it.

Personally, I always thought the Liberty Belle was one of the biggest missed opportunities at WDW in regards to what could be a great attraction, but was so neglected that it became like a parody of itself. "Hey lets go on the boat and see what Disney World was like when it opened in the 1970s because it hasn't been touched since then."

I have made my thoughts clear on here many times about how I feel about how everything has to be IP now, so i'll spare the rant on that lol. For many years now they have been pushing IP in your face anywhere and everywhere regardless of whether it makes sense or not, so i'd like to say i'm surprised but I am not.

In retrospect, I think closing 'Tom Sawyer's Island' and filling in the 'Rivers of America' is a mistake. It's not exceptional. It's neither innovative nor enriching. It's not ambitious. It does not seem to embrace the "park as a platform" approach to design. It's a queue, followed by three minutes of excitement, followed by a gift shop.

The is the Magic Kingdom. The greatest themed entertainment production in history. This proposed expansion is beneath that legacy.

Keep the island and the river.

I think it's more of an unlinking of public school systems' Spring Break calendars with Easter. Prior to the Pandemic, almost every school system in the country held their Spring Break during the week prior to Easter. However, more and more school systems are using Spring Break as a term break between grading periods, so those cannot be linked to a holiday that moves around on the calendar with lunar phases. So like many American college and universities, public school have started to routinely give students a Spring Break during the 2nd or 3rd week of March regardless of when Easter occurs. That will therefore spread the "Spring Break" crowds out.

I'm a bit surprised by your statement TH. I know you appreciate the aspects of WDI that provide highly themed environments and nostalgia, but you also recognize the foolishness of Disney to build a 5th WDW gate just to answer Epic Universe. While ROA and TSI offer incredible theming and a great place for guests to "get away" from the bustle that is MK, those areas are a massive drag on the potential capacity of MK, which is already a massive park. In order to be an effective theme park, you can only make it so big to where guests start getting frustrated with the park's size. Villains Land already proposes to expand the current park perimeter "Beyond Big Thunder", and potentially creates bottlenecks at BTMRR and HM for guests trying to get to the new land (much in the way bottlenecks were created into Galaxy's Edge at Disneyland. Filling in ROA/TSI not only increases the capacity of MK by taking areas guests cannot occupy (water and unimproved areas on TSI), but also allows for direct paths to be create for guests to reach Villains Land. I personally think it's terrible that Disney is going to jettison a piece of theme park history, but it makes good business sense, and a logical evolution of MK.

Perhaps they can preserve some of what is being lost by turning the Liberty Bell into a floating restaurant and creating some type of adventure trail somewhere within the new Cars land.

I don’t think they need a 5th gate because of Epic Universe. They need a 5th gate to put all the people that are coming to WDW. I also agree with TH. They don’t watch out or MK loses its charm.

@ Russell

I have to admit that I know nothing about the school/college breaks in the US and accept your points.
However , if the reports are correct , then for whatever reasons the attendance was still lower than forecast during that period. Although perhaps it increased attendance at another time.

I still think that TSI and RoA could have been developed more sympathetically and utilised in such as way as to facilitate movement around the Park. I would've loved to have seen the introduction of the canoes from Disneyland and a reimagining of TSI.
I may have opted for Fattyackin's proposal for using the Speedway Racer's footprint for the Cars attraction.
In fact I might even have gone so far as extending the waterways rather than filling them in. Making LIberty Belle an extended ride with some added features. Maybe some access walkways hugging the waterside where possible. Even a water-based Frontierland attraction perhaps ?

I bet so many people will have their own ideas that would allow for added attractions that tick the boxes for expansion and increased revenue potential but retaining RoA and TSI.