Holiday World won't host coaster events next year
The Indiana park announced that it will not host any events organized by coaster clubs next year, following a fatal accident involving a coaster club member earlier this year.
Holiday World has put the hammer down on roller coaster enthusiasts, following a
fatal accident involving a coaster club member this year.
The Indiana park announced [scroll down for article] that it will not host any events organized by coaster clubs next year. What makes this more interesting is that Holiday World cited enthusiasts' hostility toward safety, as illustrated on many Web sites.
"This Zero Tolerance Policy extends to false and harmful information spread on the various Internet newsgroups and forums," Holiday World President Will Koch wrote in a letter to several clubs. "This includes posting advice about how to defeat safety devices and how to sneak cameras (when forbidden) onto coasters. It also includes making libelous claims regarding park policies and procedures."
Cameras aboard roller coasters are missiles flying back towards un-suspecting riders, if they happen to come loose. Many have claimed they strap the camera to themselves, but in no way should a hand-held camera be allowed on any type of amusement device!
All amusement parks should follow Holiday World's lead. Many enthusiasts feel they're getting a raw deal here...as only a "few" bad seeds exist. Some of these enthusiast Web sites want to work with the parks, and get the word out about safe riding. Uh, hasn't TPI been doing that for a while now? Oh wait, TPI's gone a step further, it's called the accident page.
Robert Niles (as far as I know) isn't a hardcore enthusiast; he can step outside the box and see the whole picture. That's what makes Theme Park Insider the ONLY Theme Park Site which could provide REAL tips on safe riding!
The only responsible way to get on-ride video is to use the set-up that many parks provide on their media days when they open a new ride. That's how the L.A. Times got the video of me on Scream and X at Six Flags Magic Mountain.
However, for enthusiast Web sites to get that footage, theme parks need to admit those Web sites to their media days. Unfortunately, too many theme parks take the attitude that theme park Web sites are not "legitimate" media, and refuse to credential them. That forces those sites to sneak people in, and shoot video and photos on the sly. [Theme Park Insider does not offer video, and prefers still photos provided by the parks themselves.]
Theme park Web sites reach many, many more qualified future theme park customers than the so-called "legitimate" media. Heck, Theme Park Insider attracts more visitors each year than all but the top eight theme parks in the United States. Smart theme parks eventually will recognize this, start working with independent theme park Web sites and realize the benefits in extended publicity and increased safety that working with responsible theme park Web sites can provide.
It is sad that a minority of members of a coaster club, in the case for HW, ACE can cause so much trouble for the enthuiast community as a whole!!!
I have never been to SRM but had hoped to attend one because i had hear what a great job the park does and now it was ruined by a person who was unable to show proper respect for the rules of a park which reflects poorly on all of us roller coaster enthusiasts.
And sadly other parks have had negative experiences at enthuiast events so i hope next year that people who attend these events follow all park policies and that the people who run these events do a better job of self policing themselves before no park will sponser any event. I was at the ace coastercon this year and at what i saw was people following park policy except for one IDIOT at Apollo's Chariot at BGW. The park had a simple policy of not wearing a hat on their ride and asked this individual to let them hold his hat on a ride, but of course the man whined and they let him keep his hat with the promise he wouldnt wear it, but of course the IDIOT put the hat back on once the train went up the lift hill but the operators did see this and had top stop the ride and admonish the idiot. They should have thrown him out of the park and while this may not be major it shows the type of attitude which will have parks not want enthusiast events at their parks.
So hopefully for everybodys safety people will follow all the parks rules, be it restraints or camera's.
From Anonymous
Posted September 20, 2003 at 9:53 PM
Actually, certain websites *ARE* admitted as credentialed journalists. Its just that certain really bad apple websites wreck it for everyone and give enthusiasts a bad name. Sneaking into construction sites, posting publicly, pretending to be buddy buddy with higher management and attacking other parks and people due to petty vendettas. Those are the kind of people the parks want no part of; those with the arrogant attitude that the park exists to serve their own selfish needs...
Robert, you bring up a good point. Please elaborate on what a, "responsible," theme park site is.
This also begs the question, WHAT ROLE DO ENTHUSIAST RUNNED WEBSITES REALLY HAVE WITHIN THE AMUSEMENT PARK INDUSTRY?
Enthusiast run websites don't really have that big of a role, but their advice on how to cheat restraints has obviously gotten to somebody, since the death on the Raven has widely been blamed on loose restraints.
To clear up a possible misunderstanding, the park has only cancelled events. They have not banned coaster enthusiasts. Its a shame that a few bad apples spoil the bunch. On the other side, I give kudos to Will Koch and family for speaking out and doing something about this problem. While it is true that coaster enthusiasts are important to a park's success, I'm sorry to say to the coaster nuts that the theme park industry doesn't revolve around us, and I think that it should be that way. There are millions of other parkgoers out there that just want to have a good time, and when those few bad apples cheat their restraints and bring on cameras, they not only endanger themselves, but they also endanger the 23 other people riding the ride with them. This "zero tolerance policy" will probably turn some people away, but we won't see this problem at Holiday World anymore.
"... false and harmful information spread on the various Internet newsgroups and forums," Holiday World President Will Koch wrote in a letter to several clubs. "This includes posting advice about how to defeat safety devices ..."
It appears Mr. Koch doesn't get the point or is not willing to spend the money to ensure that restraint devises CANNOT be tampered with. i.e. ROAR at SFAmerica will not run until the safety belt is engaged (and the belt cannot be disengaged until the ride ends).
I, myself, have been known to climb out of coaster cars and ride on the back of the car in front of me, until various parks decided to run alternate train with one in reverse so we could ride backwards in safety. Now, standup coasters STILL have the problem of being able to be tampered with, tho I no longer condone this as one of my friends copied the (very simple) technique, fell from the car and died. Shockwave Incident
Kk
Well, klown you are the type of person who fails to follow rules and makes all coaster riders look bad by intentionally not follwoing the rules and assuming you more about the safe operation of roller coasters.
From all ive hear Mr Koch does get and people who fail to follow the rules dont!!
As for responsbile web sites im sure Mr Niles will speak for himself but i would guess that the Koch family will consider responsible web site to be those that dont encourage people to break rules, explain how to do so and dont feature on ride video that is against park policy.
klown-I hope you in fact have learned your lesson and do now follow the park rules, more for the parks liability than for your own safety!!!
A responsible theme park Web site...
Does not encourage foolish and dangerous behavior by theme park visitors.
Does not accept or promote content that contributors gathered in an unsafe or illegal way.
Does not violate theme parks' trademarks in its URLs or content. Nor does it steal content from other Web sites and publications.
Does not disguise advertising from theme parks as editorial content. Or accept gifts or payment from theme parks in exchange for coverage.
It also strives to encourage theme park visitors to behave themselves in a safe and responsible manner. And to encourage theme parks to provide a safe, entertaining and affordable entertainment for their visitors.
Thank you for your insightfulness, Mr. OGrosky.
Um, duh!
I said I *used* to be a fool ... TWENTY years ago! Now that ride designers have added more excitement and added safety features, I no long feel the need to "experiment" with my thrills.
I DON NOT condone extracurricular thrill seeking at amusement parks, however, I do not feel the need to ban Enthusiast Events just to make a point ... I think the sad loss of a guest is enough testament to what can go wrong.
-Kk
I can't blame them. Who got the bad publicity from the death at Holiday World? The Enthusiast Club to which the victim belonged? Nope. The park got the bad publicity.
Robert, who does a responsible theme park Web site cater to? More often then not I'd have to say everyone and their grandmother.
Prime example, the accident page here on Theme Park Insider. How many enthusiast websites would even think of putting up such a page? NONE. They're too busy trying to win the fondness the parks they cover. That's what sets TPI aside as the responsible theme park Web site. Actually the accident page isn't responsible, it's valiant and commendable.
It also seems Robert's last post was indirectly describing TPI.=)
Klown - You really started to worry me. I was beginning to think you had a potato for a brain.
Fan sites are just that - created by fans. There are good fans (like us) and there are the negatives types (Al Lutz).
My other passion is my Sea-Doo. Look at the bashing PWC owners take just because of some stupid riders out there. Sadly, DUMB is everywhere.
Amusement Business magazine is reporting that Cedar Fair sent a similar letter to several coaster clubs in August. Though Cedar Fair did not cancel any events for 2004, it warned that it would start cancelling organized enthusiast events if its safety rules are not followed.
Cedar Fair cited unhooking seat belts, sneaking cameras on rides and asking attendants not to click down lap bars all the way in its letters.
From Anonymous
Posted September 23, 2003 at 1:28 AM
Mr. Verginia, you may with to take the bigger picture with Al Lut'z site. Sure, it is negative but it is ALSO accurate. He doesnt gloss over things like other enthusiast websites, so I commend him for that. For some real garbage in websites, the initials LP and WC and ACN come to mind.
From Jet Nitro
Posted September 23, 2003 at 8:11 AM
Sounds like a damage/spin control move to me. I believe Holiday World is also one of the few "independent,non-chain" parks in the US as well, So I can understand the move for purely business aspects. They dont have the deep pockets of say a six flags, disney or universal. But, nevertheless, the responsibility of a safe day at any theme park is OUR responsibility.
While i dont know the Koch family personally(owners of HW) i haver spoken to those who do and were at the event when the death occurred. And from what im told they were very shaken up because this is a FAMILY run park and not dismissed as just bad pr problems like might happen at a major company park. SO i dont think that this at all was damage/spin/pr control but heartfelt thoughts by owners who were truly upset that this happened and dont want a repeat of this type of incident at their park!!!
A park that offers visitors(like HW does) free parking/free soda/free sun tan lotion/free tube rentals is not out to ripoff one off like a major park but one that wants to make the experience enjoyable for all.
Mr. O'Grosky your last post is so full of inferences that one has to question the possibility of the validity of your statements.
You can take what i wrote in any manner that you want. But from people i have spoken too who do know the family owners and from all ive read about the park and its operations i believe what i said about the park is true and correct and they arent cynical CEO's who care much more about the bottom line than their guests. It is one of the few parks you here few negatives about and may be why that they have been one of the few parks the last few years that saw increased attendance. Sadly we dont have more parls like this one!!
From Jet Nitro
Posted September 23, 2003 at 6:41 PM
Well bobbo, I agree that they're one of the best and last well ran indie theme parks in this country. But, I think they jumped the gun for banning ALL ACE and ACE-type groups.
My dear friend Annonymous: I mearly mention Mr. Lutz as the negative portion of the ying/yang spectrum of fan sites. While I don't agree with everything Mr. Lutz say's, I also don't agree with everything Mr. Niles say's. That doesn't mean that they are wrong.
As far as Holiday worlds action against roller coaster groups, they should all sit down and discuss the issue. As much as they may not know it, without the enthusiasts, the parks really would suffer.
The group I belong to had an event last weekend at Silverwood Theme park in Idaho. ERT on 2 GREAT coasters meant a lot to us. The pictures from the on-ride camera has all my coworkers excited about going to the park and riding. Being that Silverwood is a 5 hours drive, I wouldn't have been there at all last weekend if it hadn't been for the group event.
I also think they went overboard in stopping events but i do respect their decision and why they did considering what took place.
PS-especially since i was planning on going to SRM in 04.
Even as a coaster nut, I support HW's decision to cancel their events. Anyone who questions their motives and integrity should look at their track record. This park has won several awards for hospitality, employee friendliness, and customer satisfaction. These awards tell me that this is one of few parks with good management and leadership. They even closed the Raven, their most popular ride, for a day in memorial to the deceased. This wasn't an obligatory thing, but they did it. How many other parks have done this....Six Flags and Goliath? I think not.
Many people may question, but from a theme park standpoint, and not an ACE one, this is exactly what needed to happen. Holiday World is an indie park with no corporate tower to answer to, and owners who aren't afraid to step up to the plate and take a swing...the perfect park to do the thing that they have done. Cancelling their highly successful and widely popular events sends a message to those clubs. You can make all the rules you want, but most people won't take them seriously unless you enforce them. By doing it now, HW is telling the clubs as a whole that it is serious. The organizations have clearly gotten the message, and now hopefully they will be discouraging irresponsible riding even more. Im sure that a club like ACE doesnt want to tarnish their reputation with deviant riders. After all the smoke has cleared, HW and the clubs will work it out, and we can go to their 2005 event.
Good perspective Derek.
Mr. Robert Verginia writes: "without the enthusiasts, the parks really would suffer."
I'd really like to know how parks would suffer without enthusiast support.
One might think that the favorite patron of the amusement parks is the enthusiast, but it's thinking like that, which begs the question -- enthsuiast can't take themselves that serious?
I think Holiday World is well within their rights to make this descision. Maybe their purpose in making this descision is 2-fold. They want to address the incident that happened, and make it clear that they are doing something to keep it from happeneing again. They're also sending a very clear message to enthusiasts who have gone way out of control, and have worn out their welcome with their irresponsible behavior. I'm a huge coaster fan, but not a member of a coaster club, and I think this descision has reprocussions throughout the industry that the guests are responsible for their own irresponsibility in the parks. Also, park will take measures to eliminate irresponsible behavior so that the parks do not receive negative publicity.
I think the loss of coaster enthusiasts(which i am one and a member of a club) would hurt parks in the same way that the poss of a corporate picnic's. Will it put them out of busniess, no but they are part of the mix that make parks successfull and profitable. Alot of coaster enthusiats visit many different park in a year and hold season passes for secveral park chains and do spend a good deal of money in parks but they of all people should set the standard when it comes to behavior and it is bad when they misbehave and give all enthusiats a bad name.
Losing the enthusiast community is insubstantial compared to losing the family of 4 who visits theme parks once or twice a year. Those are the people who throw down the $. Then again enthsuiast are equals to the people who visit once or twice a year.
It's almost as if the enthusiast community is considering themselves a seperate entity.
From Jeff Arons
Posted September 25, 2003 at 5:12 PM
Holiday World sucks anyway!
I don't see why they are banning coaster events for the year. It's the riders' faults that they died, not HW's! Come on Holiday World, are you that stupid? People don't just fall from a ride if they are restrained in, unless they have been tampering with the restraints. Get a brain, Santa! (Holiday World is in Santa Claus, Indiana, and the park was originally named Santa Claus Land)
Jason-Well, im a coaster enthusiast and also have a family of 5 people who do visit several different parks a year, once or twice, so then if i stop going it would be substantial then, right???
And Jeff, thanks for such a intelligent reply!!!
I agree that there are many dumb people that go to amusement parks. I especially have to love it when it is said "please, no flash photography" and someone in my group takes pictures while on the roller coasters (they took pictures in Space Mountain, Splash Mountain and TBTMR). What would happen if that camera dropped in Space Mountain and hit someone?
Back to the point at hand. These types of people ruin it for others and at Holiday World, it is no exception. I don't think they should ban the ethusianst group, just the people who cause the accidents. That's why they have rules and someone can die if these rules are broken, just like at Holiday World.
Mr. O'Grosky-
If your family were to stop going yes, it'd be substantial. But, are they enthsuiast? And what makes an enthusiast in your opinion?
Me and my kids are avid coaster/theme park enthusiasts, but my wife isnt and tolerates it.
As for a description, that is a hard one. I would think a enthusiast would be a person who visits several parks a year to ride their favorite rides or smaple new ones, but im sure that one who loves parks but dosnet have the opportunity ti visit them as often would also consider themselves to be a enthusiast. So i guess someone more enlightened than me would have to come up with a better description.
It appears that Holiday World has issued a list of people banned from the park... Mr. O'Grosky what do you know about this list?
Jason , i would love to have info on the list and see if i could recognize any names, but alas i have no info about it.
Whew! I think Holiday World is going a little to far here. There is absolutley NO reason to ban all coaster clubs from one accident. That's like banning black guys from a store because several got into a fight. It makes no sense.( also, I do not mean any offense to black people)
Don't try to ask most ride attendants at SF parks to not push you bar down all the way it will usualy lead to them pusing it in as far as they can.
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